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Thread: Ticket Question? Look here First!!!

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    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    Ticket Question? Look here First!!!

    This Thread is to help answer some of the most commonly asked questions about tickets. Please look for your answers to your questions here. There are the following headings: Magic Your Way Tickets, Hopper Passes, Water Park Fun and More, and Non-Expiration. Please scan down to the heading that you feel your question most falls under and see if your question is answered there. If you don't find your answer, please feel free to post your question down in the forum. Please do NOT ask your question in this thread.

    If you see any errors or have a suggestion for a new question to be added, please post it in this thread.


    Magic Your Way tickets (MYW)

    Q: How many days can I add to my tickets?
    A: 10 is the maximum number of days that you can have on your ticket. (The exception is for those living in the UK who can purchase a 14-day ticket.)

    Q: What parks are included in my ticket?
    A: Your ticket is good for all of the 4 major theme parks. You can add on a Hopper that allows you to go to more then one park in the same day and you can add on the Water Park Fun and More option that will allow you to go to the water parks, Disney Quest and Golf.

    Q: Can I upgrade my tickets with additional days or options?
    A: Yes. Magic Your Way (MYW)tickets can be upgraded as long as it is done within 14 days of first use and before you finish using the last day on your ticket. Some special discounted tickets are not upgradeable, mainly for youth groups, sporting events, or other types of heavily discounted tickets. Non-upgradeable tickets usually indicate that they are not upgradeable on the actual ticket somewhere. You can do the upgrades at any Guest Services location or Disney Resorts Concierge Desk (although there occasionally have been reports of people not being able to do this at the resorts.)

    Q: Can I upgrade my ticket even though I've already used it?
    A: As long as it is within 14 days of first use you can and you haven't already used all of your days on the ticket. This would include adding additional days, hoppers, and WPF&M. All upgrades are good for use immediately.

    Q: I purchased my ticket from a Disney Authorized Reseller instead of Disney, can I upgrade my ticket?
    A: Yes, however you will want to use the ticket at least once before upgrading to "lock in" your ticket value. If you have not used the ticket at least once, they will not "bridge" the ticket price and will only give you the value of the ticket that the Reseller paid for the ticket (which is less then you paid for the ticket.)

    Q: How much will it cost me to upgrade my ticket?
    A: The price to upgrade is the difference between the gate value of the ticket at the time it was purchased and the current gate value of the ticket. This means that if you purchased tickets before a price increase, you will still only be credited for the value of the ticket at the time it was purchased. For example, before the new price increase, the gate price for a 6-day ticket was $318.44. After the increase, the gate price was changed to $334.41 and the price for a 7-day ticket was changed to $345.60. So, to upgrade the ticket purchased before the price increase will cost you $345.60-$318.44 or $27.16. For a person who purchased that same 6-day ticket after the price increase, the cost to add that extra day would be $345.60-$334.41 or $11.16. (Note that these prices are an example and may not reflect current ticket prices.)

    Q: If I have an extra day on my ticket that we are not going to be able to use, can I just use it to go into 2 parks on the same day?
    A: Absolutely NOT. When you enter a park in the morning, your ticket is then keyed to that park for the day. If you attempt to go into a different park with the same ticket and don't have the Hopper option, the computer system will notify the CM at the gate and you will not be granted admission. The only way to go into 2 parks on the same day is with the hopper option attached to your ticket.

    Q: I have some days on my ticket that I can't use, can I just give them to someone else?
    A: No, Disney's policy is that partially used tickets are not transferable. Your fingers are scanned as you go into the gates and coded to your ticket. Once the ticket is used by one person, only that person can use it. However, an unused ticket can be used by anyone.

    Q: On our last trip, we purchased a 5-day ticket but only used 4 days, can I use that last day on this next trip?
    A: Only if you paid for the non-expiration option on your original ticket. Otherwise, sorry, you can't use it.

    Q: I have 3 year old tickets that have never been used. Are they any good?
    A: Yes. As long as they have never been used, Disney will still accept them. Not however that if they are not RFID and you do not have a Magic Band, you will need to exchange them for RFID tickets at guest services.

    Q: My friend has some tickets that have never been used that she gave to me. I noticed that the ticket says it is "Non-transferable". Will we be able to use these tickets?
    A: Yes, as long as they have not been used, anyone can use them. They become non-transferable after first use.

    Q: I have old, unused tickets but my child is now 10 years old. What can we do about his child ticket?
    A: Take the ticket to any Guest relations window and tell them that your child is now an adult. They will only charge you the difference between a child's pass and an adult pass. However, note that if you have non-expire on any partially used tickets, they will simply exchange your child's ticket for an adult ticket with the number days left on the original pass (not upgradable) and if your child is 9 when purchasing an AP, they will still be able to use the child AP until the expiration date on the AP (see AP thread for more info on APs).

    Q: My child will be celebrating his 10th birthday while we are at WDW. Do I need to purchase a child or adult ticket for him?
    A: You will purchase a child's ticket for him. The policy is the age your child is when first using it. This also applies to younger children who are 2 at the time you start your trip but turning 3 on the trip. In that case, you will not need to purchase a ticket for your child as 2 and under go in free.

    Q: Is there somewhere besides Disney that I can purchase my tickets?
    A: Yes. Make sure that you are careful and only use a Disney authorized ticket reseller. For example, Ebay is not a reliable place to get your tickets. AAA and www.undercovertourist.com are both good options. Many major corporations have agreements with Disney so if you work for one, check to see if they offer any discounts on Disney tickets.

    Q: I will be arriving in Orlando 2 days before my package starts. Can I get my tickets early?
    A: Currently the answer is yes. Go to any guest relations at any of the parks and they will be able to give you your tickets up to 3 days before your package begins. This is the only place you can do this at.

    Q: What happens if I lose my ticket?
    A: If you are staying at a Disney resort, chances are that your ticket will be on your Key to the World card (which also doubles as your room key, dining plan access, and room charge card). In this case, when you notice your card missing, just go to any guest services or your resort front desk and let them know it is lost. They will need to check your ID and will then print you out a new card (after canceling the lost one of course!!) If you are not staying on property or your ticket is not on your Key to the World, make sure that you make a photo copy or take a picture of the back of your ticket. Then if you lose it, you can show the CM at the Guest Service location the numbers, etc on your card. This will not guarantee that Disney will replace your lost ticket but greatly increases your chances of having a new ticket issued to you. If you forget to take the picture or photocopy, they can still track down your ticket by using the other tickets in your party to figure out which one is missing. This process can take a while so be prepared.

    Hopper Passes:

    Q: How much does the hopper option cost?
    A: Currently the cost is $63.90 (tax included) per person. It is the same price for adults and children and it is the same cost for a 1-day ticket or a 10-day ticket. Even if you add it to your ticket the last day of your trip, it will cost the same amount.

    Q: It only costs me $"x" to add a couple of extra days to my tickets. This is a lot cheaper then the hopper pass. Can I use one day ticket for MK in the morning and another day for HS in the evening?
    A: NO!!!! Your ticket is locked into a park for the day when it is scanned at the gate. If you attempt to go into a different park in the afternoon, you will be denied access. The ONLY way to go to 2 or more parks in the same day is to pay for the hopper option, period.

    Q: What if we don't know if we will hop or not.
    A: If you aren't sure you will use it, don't add it to your ticket. You can always upgrade your ticket once you get there.

    Water Park Fun and More Option (WPF&M)

    Q: How much does this option cost?
    A: $63.90 flat rate for adults and children. It is the same cost if you have a 1-day ticket or a 10-day ticket.

    Q: If I have a 5-day ticket, how many WPF&M options do I get?
    A: In this case, 5. The rule is 2 for 1 and 2 day tickets and after that you get the same number of WPF&M options as number of days that you have on your tickets. You may use your allotted number of options at either of the 2 water parks, Disney Quest, Disney's Wide World of Sports or a Round of Golf at Oak trail.

    Q: We know that we want to go to the Water park once but aren't sure if we will go more. Should we get the WPF&M option?
    A: No. A one day pass is cheaper. You can purchase this ticket at Guest Services outside of the water park. If you later decide that you'd like to go to a water park for a second day or would like to spend a day at Disney Quest, take both your one day Water Park ticket and your MYW ticket to guest services and tell them that you want to upgrade to the WPF&M option. They will combine these 2 and you will only pay the difference between your one day ticket and the WPF&M cost!! This is the only instance where it is Disney policy to accept two tickets for an upgrade.

    Q: I don't have the hopper option on my ticket. Will I be able to go into a park in the morning and then Disney Quest in the afternoon with my WPF&M?
    A: Yes. The WPF&M is completely separate from the park ticket portion of your MYW ticket. An unlike the regular park tickets, you can use as many in one day of the WPF&M options that you want to. This means that you can go to the Magic Kingdom in the morning, cool off at Blizzard Beach in the afternoon and then stop by Disney Quest in the evening.

    Non-Expiration Option

    Q: When does it make sense to add the non-expiration to my ticket?
    A: This is a tough question and is best answered in this article: I know it is a lot to read but it will help you honestly determine if this is the best choice for you or not.

    Q: I purchased an 9-day ticket with no expiration on my last trip and used 5 days. We need 5 days for this upcoming trip. Can we just add one day?
    A: No, once you use your ticket, you have 14 days to do any upgrades on or to your ticket. If you do not make the upgrades within those 14 days, you cannot make any changes.

    Q: We have a 10-day ticket and are going to add Non-expire on them. Won't it be cheaper if we use the 5-days first?
    A: No. The cost for the non-expire option is based on the original number of days on the ticket, not what is left over. So, if you have a 10-day ticket, you will be paying for the non-expire for 10 day not the 5 days left over.

    Q: What if we use up all of our regular park days on our non-expire tickets but still have some WPF&M options left? Do they expire when we use our last regular park admission?
    A: Nope. They are good until you use them all up!
    Last edited by blyday; 03-11-2014 at 05:17 PM.

  2. #2
    prefers quisp over quake tiggr88's Avatar
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    Somebody's been busy!
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  3. #3
    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiggr88 View Post
    Somebody's been busy!
    And I need to get busier and get those DDP questions up!!!
    Brenda

  4. #4
    THE RULES!!! vicki_c's Avatar
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    I have some edits

    Q: I purchased my ticket from a broker instead of Disney, can I upgrade my ticket?
    A: Yes, but you will need to use it at least once before upgrading. If you try to upgrade it before use, the CM will charge you the price difference between what the broker paid (less then you did) and the new ticket. If you use it once, then the ticket will only show the number days the ticket is worth and you will now be charged the difference between the original ticket and the upgrade.

    This is a bit confusing to me. The key really is that if you use it once - the ticket will be valued at the CURRENT GATE PRICE for the ticket and your upgrade cost will be less than if you didn't use it before upgrading. When you say "will be charged the difference between the original ticket" it sounds like what you paid to the reseller, but that's not correct. That last sentence that includes "show the number of days that the ticket is worth" needs some clarification.

    Q: I have old tickets but my child has is now 10 years old. What can we do about his child ticket?
    A: Take the ticket to any Guest relations window and ask tell them that your child is now an adult. They will only charge you the difference between a child's pass and an adult pass.

    This is only true for an UNUSED child's ticket. If you have a partially used ticket (with NE obviously), you will not have to pay to change the ticket to an adult ticket. Same goes for APs where a child has gone from child to adult during the year.

    For reseller tickets, I would use the words "Disney authorized ticket reseller" as being the only legit place to buy tickets outside of Disney.

    I would add something in along the lines of "Disney's policy is that partially used tickets are not transferable. Unused tickets may be transferred to another person."

    New idea: How much will it cost me to upgrade my ticket?
    The price to upgrade is always the difference between the current gate price of the ticket you have and the current gate price of the ticket you want (provided you use your original ticket at least once before upgrading).
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
    It's an amusement park, for goodness sake, how much planning could you need?

  5. #5
    May be computer illiterate, but I figured out how to set my user title myself when no one else could!! magic1106's Avatar
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    I don't know if this is the right place to post this but can we have a thread to help find a official Disney ticket reseller and the discounts possible? I have searched 7 different sites and have found a $20 difference between the cheapest and the most expensive. I would also like information on how reliable the seller is and any experiences people have had dealing with them and using their tickets. Thanks

  6. #6
    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    Thanks Vicki for those suggestions!!! When I was limited to the number of characters I could have, I made some edits that seemed to make sense to me but they obviously didn't work!!! Thanks to Josh I now have more space so was able to fix those!!! Would you mind looking over it again and see if they make more sense now or if you see any other corrections? I really appreciate it!!!

    magic1106: What you are requesting would be way too much for this thread. However, starting a new thread might be a good idea. That said, the idea of comparing pricing and mentioning what one reseller has verses another one would be come outdated very quickly as specials, etc change from day to day. I thread that says "this reseller is very reliable" etc would be a good idea and then people can do their own comparisons based on what ticket they want to purchase and can feel confident that they are getting the best deal from a reliable source.
    Brenda

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    despite having 1,000+ posts, does not visit the forum UmmGooD's Avatar
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    Here are my questions I had earlier that weren't addressed by this thread. I am sure they are good because I came up with them j/k but I figured other people would like to know after my awesome thread falls into the great abyss.

    I know if I don't have the park hopper option I cannot use another day to enter Epcot after I went to the MK. But let's say we went to MK got done earlier than expected or are just burnt out on it and decide we would like to go to Epcot if I add the park hoppers to my ticket AFTER I have used the tickets at another park will I be able to get into the other park that day or will I be out of luck?

    I also know that if you don't stay onsite and the ticket isn't associated with your room key you can be out of luck if you lose it. What do you have to write down and keep somewhere safe in case that happens so you can get another ticket made? (I thought this might be helpful for someone who will be holding paper tickets.)

    On the WPF&M add on if I have 9 day tickets and add that option do I get 9 WP entries AND 9 quest entries or is it 9 WP or quest entries? I could see where the non expiration might be worth it if I could use those on future trips. I might have to do the math.

  8. #8
    THE RULES!!! vicki_c's Avatar
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    Looks better - here are few more
    Q: I have old, unused tickets but my child has is now 10 years old. What can we do about his child ticket?
    A: Take the ticket to any Guest relations window and tell them that your child is now an adult. They will only charge you the difference between a child's pass and an adult pass. However, note that if you have non-expire on any partially used ticketsyour delete yourtickets, they will simply exchange your child's ticket for an adult ticket with the number days left on the original pass (not upgradable) and if your child is 9 when purchasing an AP, they will still be able to use the child AP until the expiration date on the AP (see AP thread for more info on APs).

    Q: Can I upgrade my tickets with additional days or options?
    A: Yes. All Magic Your Way (MYW)tickets can be upgraded as long as it is done within 14 days of first purchase. Some special discounted tickets are not upgradeable, mainly for youth groups, sporting events, or other types of heavily discounted tickets. Non-upgradeable tickets usually say that on them somewhere.

    Maybe I should think about working on the Resorts sticky now.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
    It's an amusement park, for goodness sake, how much planning could you need?

  9. #9
    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    However, note that if you have non-expire on any partially used ticketsyour delete yourtickets,
    Hey Vicki.......I'm a little confused by this. I have a feeling it is a typo (I do it all of the time) but not sure what your saying here? What is the delete your tickets thing?
    Brenda

  10. #10
    THE RULES!!! vicki_c's Avatar
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    LOL - sorry! I meant delete the word "your" if you changed it to include my edits. It was just a word that wasn't needed anymore! The formatting options didn't allow for strike-throughs, which is what I would have done if it was available!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
    It's an amusement park, for goodness sake, how much planning could you need?

  11. #11
    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicki_c View Post
    LOL - sorry! I meant delete the word "your" if you changed it to include my edits. It was just a word that wasn't needed anymore! The formatting options didn't allow for strike-throughs, which is what I would have done if it was available!
    Ahhhh.....that makes sense!!! OK....I'll edit it now!!!
    Brenda

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    Q: Can I upgrade my tickets with additional days or options?
    A: Yes. All All Magic Your Way (MYW)tickets can be upgraded as long as it is done within 14 days of first purchase. Some special discounted tickets are not upgradeable, mainly for youth groups, sporting events, or other types of heavily discounted tickets. Non-upgradeable tickets usually say that on them somewhere.

    Hi!
    In the above Q&A, I believe it should say "within 14 days of first use" not first "purchase".
    Lauren

  13. #13
    THE RULES!!! vicki_c's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizzygreen View Post
    Q: Can I upgrade my tickets with additional days or options?
    A: Yes. All All Magic Your Way (MYW)tickets can be upgraded as long as it is done within 14 days of first purchase. Some special discounted tickets are not upgradeable, mainly for youth groups, sporting events, or other types of heavily discounted tickets. Non-upgradeable tickets usually say that on them somewhere.

    Hi!
    In the above Q&A, I believe it should say "within 14 days of first use" not first "purchase".
    Lauren
    OOOOH - good catch.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
    It's an amusement park, for goodness sake, how much planning could you need?

  14. #14
    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicki_c View Post
    OOOOH - good catch.
    Very good catch indeed!!!!!
    Brenda

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    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    Josh....somehow I didn't see your post earlier. Some of what you have there actually was answered on the list but was a little vague so I've hopefully made them stronger. I've added the updated versions.....does this look better?:

    Q: Can I upgrade my ticket even though I've already used it?
    A: As long as it is within 14 days of first use you can. This would include adding additional days, hoppers, and WPF&M. All upgrades are good for use immediately.

    Q: If I have a 5-day ticket, how many WPF&M options do I get?
    A: In this case, 5. The rule is 2 for 1 and 2 day tickets and after that you get the same number of WPF&M options as number of days that you have on your tickets. You may use your allotted number of options at either of the 2 water parks, Disney Quest, Disney's Wide World of Sports or a Round of Golf at Oak trail.


    And this is completely new:
    Q: What happens if I lose my ticket?
    A: If you are staying at a Disney resort, chances are that your ticket will be on your Key to the World card (which also doubles as your room key, dining plan access, and room charge card). In this case, when you notice your card missing, just go to any guest services or your resort front desk and let them know it is lost. They will need to check your ID and will then print you out a new card (after canceling the lost one of course!!) If you are not staying on property or your ticket is not on your Key to the World, make sure that you make a photo copy or take a picture of the back of your ticket. Then if you lose it, you can show the CM at the Guest Service location the numbers, etc on your card. This will not guarantee that Disney will replace your lost ticket but greatly increases your chances of having a new ticket issued to you.
    Brenda

  16. #16
    who gon stop me? HUH? josh's Avatar
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    Geeze, I just read over my "No Expiration Ticket Explanation" and it confused me. Going to have to rework that one.

  17. #17
    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Geeze, I just read over my "No Expiration Ticket Explanation" and it confused me. Going to have to rework that one.
    I think that has a lot to do with the fact that the whole "no Expiration" thing is one of the most confusing things Disney offers!!!!
    Brenda

  18. #18
    prefers quisp over quake tiggr88's Avatar
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    What is confusing about it? Don't you just pay a sliding scale amount by number of days purchased and then the days never expire? Is it the timing on adding the option to a ticket that is confusing? Or just the analysis of whether it is worthwhile or not as compared to buying separate tickets for separate vacations?

    I haven't considered it since they started charging extra for it, so I'm not that familiar with the details.
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  19. #19
    who gon stop me? HUH? josh's Avatar
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    Only in very rare circumstances does it make financial sense to add No Expiration. Basically the only time is when you're planning multiple one to three day vacations over a number of years. It also makes sense to add the Water Parks & More option since those never "expire" either and can be used separately, even after your theme park days are used up.

  20. #20
    prefers quisp over quake tiggr88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh View Post
    Only in very rare circumstances does it make financial sense to add No Expiration. Basically the only time is when you're planning multiple one to three day vacations over a number of years. It also makes sense to add the Water Parks & More option since those never "expire" either and can be used separately, even after your theme park days are used up.
    I agree. That's why we never add it. I used to get 10 day passes before they charged extra and then used them on two trips.

    I wasn't sure what was confusing about them though. I thought maybe there was something I was missing.
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  21. #21
    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    Is it the timing on adding the option to a ticket that is confusing? Or just the analysis of whether it is worthwhile or not as compared to buying separate tickets for separate vacations?
    Yep.....that is what is so confusing. It is amazing who many people think that if they are using "X" number of days on this trip then they only have to pay for the "y" days left on the ticket, etc. Then there is the whole figuring if it really will save you money and so forth. At first glance......it seems so simple but without really looking at the numbers, you could end up being one of those people who pay WAY too much because they didn't actually understand how the ticket worked and how to figure out if it will or will not be a good extra to add.
    Brenda

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    Great thread, Brenda! I loves all your stickies, and hope more people start to utilize them first... I'm guilty of that major board sin myself, but am forcing myself to read through all the stickies first and finding yours are particularly in depth and useful!

    Thanks again :)

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    Q: We know that we want to go to the Water park once but aren't sure if we will go more. Should we get the WPF&M option?
    A: No. A one day pass is cheaper.
    I think that it CAN be cheaper to add the WPF&M option than to pay for the one day at the water park but only if you are already adding the Park Hopper option to the base ticket price. For example, at a discounted ticket site that I have used (official and never had a problem) a 10 day park hopper ticket is 383.95 but if you get the 10 day Park Hopper+WPF&M option, it is only $404.65 so only a difference of about $21 which is way cheaper than the one day admission price.

    I do have a question though - does anyone know when what year they started to do the barimetric finger thingy (yes that is the technical term ) for tickets? I have some old tickets that still have "fun options on them". I think they are from 2000 and that was when the tickets were non-expiring so if you didn't use your fun options, you didn't lose them. I just don't know if they are tied to specific people. My daughter and I are going in October but debating on whether to take the old tickets and hope she can use one or just go ahead and get the WPF&M option on our tickets. We will have 12 days at WDW and so plan on using two non-major park options. (We have 4 visits on one of the old tickets and 3 visits on the other - not sure how that happened. LOL).

    Also, has it been discussed anywhere about buying tickets separately and converting them to the new RFD device/band once you get there?

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    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoTC_Junkie View Post
    I think that it CAN be cheaper to add the WPF&M option than to pay for the one day at the water park but only if you are already adding the Park Hopper option to the base ticket price. For example, at a discounted ticket site that I have used (official and never had a problem) a 10 day park hopper ticket is 383.95 but if you get the 10 day Park Hopper+WPF&M option, it is only $404.65 so only a difference of about $21 which is way cheaper than the one day admission price.

    I do have a question though - does anyone know when what year they started to do the barimetric finger thingy (yes that is the technical term ) for tickets? I have some old tickets that still have "fun options on them". I think they are from 2000 and that was when the tickets were non-expiring so if you didn't use your fun options, you didn't lose them. I just don't know if they are tied to specific people. My daughter and I are going in October but debating on whether to take the old tickets and hope she can use one or just go ahead and get the WPF&M option on our tickets. We will have 12 days at WDW and so plan on using two non-major park options. (We have 4 visits on one of the old tickets and 3 visits on the other - not sure how that happened. LOL).

    Also, has it been discussed anywhere about buying tickets separately and converting them to the new RFD device/band once you get there?
    Thanks for the reminder that I need to update some of this information. Just last June, when Disney released the new ticket prices, they made it so that it was only about $25 more to add the WPF&M if you already have the hopper (or vice versa). It used to be that you paid the full price for each add on. So....I will need to update that information. I'll also update about the new RFID stuff. It is really new.

    As for the Barimetric finger thingy.......I believe it was around 2004 or 2005 that it was changed. You might want to start a separate thread to ask that specific question. We have a few people here on the boards who will know the answer for sure but they won't look in this thread to see that you asked about it.
    Brenda

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    Is it honor system on kids' ages? How do they know my 2 year old is really 2? Kids' size vary so much...

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