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Thread: How Many FASTPASSES Does One Really Need?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strangeite View Post
    QFT

    I am reminded of the first day in Economics 101. The professor stands in front of the class and informs us that there is no such thing as a need, there is only wants.

    And it is true that people don't know what they want until you show it to them.
    If you weren't a Seinfeld fan, you won't get the reference.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Strangeite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blyday View Post
    Hmmmmm.......I'm not sure I agree with that....I think that food, water, and breathable air (and the ability to breath it) are needs. After all....you would die without them.

    Ok, give me a minute to channel my inner economist.



    You don't "need" food, water and air. You want them. Sure you would die without them, but you also don't "need" life. You want to live.

    The definition of need is that it is something required. Something that you can't do with out. Something that you would never give up. Something essential.

    In other words, something priceless.

    The problem is that everything has a price.

    If you were stranded on a life raft with one of your children and there was only enough water to keep one of you alive, if you drink that water does it have a cost? Sure does. Most people in that situation would say that they wouldn't "want" the water.

    Sure these examples are taken to the extreme, but understanding the economic argument for the non-existence of needs is valuable. It can allow you to look at situations in a different light. I took that class over 15 years, but I think about that lecture often.
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  3. #28
    Senior Member butchie30d's Avatar
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    More than three to satisfy me for all the money WDW costs and how many rides I want.
    Last edited by butchie30d; 06-25-2013 at 10:04 PM.
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  4. #29
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    How many is enough? I'm not sure, but I AM sure it's not three for MK! We get to go to WDW very rarely (cost and distance) and cram as much in as we can. I can't help but feel that the new system will try and force us to spend a lot of time standing in lines, even for those attractions that don't have queues now. I'm a low queue threshold person and don't believe any ride is worth waiting more than 20 mins for. That's not what our holidays are about I'm afraid.

    Our next trip is planned for Summer 2014 and all this has me thinking that maybe we should decrease our 'Disney' days and up our 'Universal' days (we stay on-site for both). I'm so hoping that all is settled before we get there and we can cobble together some sort of decent touring plan. If we spend all day standing around in lines, I can't imagine we'll be back in a hurry.

  5. #30
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    need /nēd/

    Verb Require (something) because it is essential or very important: "I need help now".

    Noun Circumstances in which something is necessary, or that require some course of action; necessity: "the need for food".

    Synonyms verb. want - require - demand - lack noun. want - necessity - requirement -poverty - lack

  6. #31
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    bnoble, I agree the change is causing a great deal of angst, but I think much of that comes from people who are accustomed to being able to plan out an itenerary far in advance no longer being able to do so. I think once Disney puts this into play, people will feel a little more in control of their vacations.

  7. #32
    Senior Member Strangeite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marianna View Post
    need /nēd/

    Verb Require (something) because it is essential or very important: "I need help now".

    Noun Circumstances in which something is necessary, or that require some course of action; necessity: "the need for food".

    Synonyms verb. want - require - demand - lack noun. want - necessity - requirement -poverty - lack
    At the risk of derailing George's excellent thread even further, that was my professor's point. Need as a noun can't exist. To define something as a need, would require that it is a necessity. And to go even further down the rabbit hole, a necessity is defined as something that is indispensable, or as Webster's defines it "not subject to being set aside".

    From an economic standpoint, nothing is indispensable. Everything has a cost.

    I have to regularly buy new shirts because my heart bleeds so profusely. My professor was also one of the kindest men I have ever met. The idea that there is no need, but only wants, is not an exercise to devalue human life, but rather is to provide a new outlook when looking at problems. Of course, it is academic navel gazing. But that also doesn't diminish its value as a thought exercise.

    Bringing this back home to the topic of Fastpass+, the original question posed was "How many Fastpasses does one really need?" I believe that bnoble was correct in his thoughtful answer of zero. We all may have different answers to how many we would want, but that is going to vary based on the individual. We all value Fastpasses differently. A good example of the differing value placed on experiences at WDW was perfectly illustrated in the "Favor to ask Josh" thread. Grace places a VERY high value on the parks being empty, to the point where she stated a jealousy of the family that was able to visit the MK alone. pfalcioni stated that when she visited Disneyland when it was empty, she found it less enjoyable because "...i
    n many ways it was sad and a little spooky." We all place different values on Fastpasses and Disney, Inc's job is to increase the value of Fastpasses for the greatest number of people. Our job is to exploit the system to maximize our particular individual enjoyment.

    Alright, I have derailed the thread long enough.
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  8. #33
    Senior Member neffernie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bnoble View Post
    Some of the sturm und drang around FP+ is due to the spreading of the FP love from the "knows" to the "know-nots". I get that, but I understand why it is happening. However, I think most of the agita is really because things are changing, and Change Is Bad.
    Couldn't have said it better. Once everything is in place, people will adjust. If they don't adjust then they won't go. Like you said about the Averages, Disney isn't making these changes for the hard core fans who go all the time. It is for the people who go every now and then or maybe just once, who don't plan to ride everything more than once, and would just like a chance at a FP for something. If Disney was worried that this program would turn people away, they wouldn't be increasing ticket prices and removing discounts like 1-day FL Res tickets and child APs.
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  9. #34
    A lot of this depends on if Disney allows all or a very large percentage to be allocated before the date they are useable. If you know what you are going to do each day (not each minute) and the plans don't change after you get the FPs then it will be pretty convenient. But if you have to make changes and you end up with a FPs that you can't exchange for anything you want to do then you're screwed.

  10. #35
    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neffernie View Post
    Couldn't have said it better. Once everything is in place, people will adjust. If they don't adjust then they won't go. Like you said about the Averages, Disney isn't making these changes for the hard core fans who go all the time. It is for the people who go every now and then or maybe just once, who don't plan to ride everything more than once, and would just like a chance at a FP for something. If Disney was worried that this program would turn people away, they wouldn't be increasing ticket prices and removing discounts like 1-day FL Res tickets and child APs.
    This is a great point. I think that it is so easy to get caught up in the thought that Disney is out to get us planners.....but what Disney is doing is reaching out to get those people who are not the planners. We are really a very small percentage of people who know how to work the system. Most people have absolutely no clue. I go back to the FB surveys that Disney did a year or so ago where they asked numerous times about how people felt about FPs. The overwhelming response was "I'd like to but they are always gone by the time I get to the park. I wish that Disney would limit the number they pass out first thing in the morning so it would be available to those of us who like to sleep in on vacation," (or some variation of this.) Of course there were those planners who said they loved FP, those who said that they didn't feel like paying extra for them (you know....those people who don't know anything about FPs), those who claimed that standing in line was part of the experience, etc. But the majority where those who wanted to use the FP for later arrivals, etc. So....this whole thing is one way to make this happen for those people. Sure....there is the fact that many FPs will be gone because the planners will have taken them. But...there will also be many who had no idea about FPs who will be asked to select their FPs in advance who will. This gives them the chance of experiencing these attractions with the FP and thus increasing their enjoyment.

    Will there be a few people who have learned to work the system who might decide to travel to Disney less? Possibly. But let's face it....by increasing the enjoyment of your average visitor....ultimately Disney will increase satisfaction and will gain more. It's all about the bottom line and for Disney.....this is a very good move. And let's face it....we will adapt.

    Quote Originally Posted by stratocaster68 View Post
    A lot of this depends on if Disney allows all or a very large percentage to be allocated before the date they are useable. If you know what you are going to do each day (not each minute) and the plans don't change after you get the FPs then it will be pretty convenient. But if you have to make changes and you end up with a FPs that you can't exchange for anything you want to do then you're screwed.
    I can't see Disney giving out all of the FPs in advance....if they do this....then the system really won't work. The whole point is to help those who want the flexibility of using FPs without having to arrive at the parks at 8:30 AM each day. Disney is trying to spread the magic. And one of the things that Disney has said about the FP+ is that people will be able to change FPs while in the parks.....so they have to make a way for this to happen. Otherwise, the system really will fail. I can see them saving something like 25% of the FPs for same day use. Also, you will have other people who will be dropping their FPs due to changes, etc that will open up more availability each day. No....it isn't going to be as nice as just walking up to a machine and grabbing your FPs, but with enforced return times as well as the chance that any particular FP can run out by the time you get there....well....even the current system isn't that flexible.
    Brenda

  11. #36
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    I believe that bnoble was correct in his thoughtful answer of zero.
    It's worth pointing out that my "zero" isn't really because of the want vs. need distinction (though I agree with it). It's because I know I can have a fun day at any amusement park, even if I don't have any particular mechanism to bypass lines. Such mechanisms do make it easier, but they are not a pre-requisite for an enjoyable day.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by blyday View Post
    I can't see Disney giving out all of the FPs in advance....if they do this....then the system really won't work. The whole point is to help those who want the flexibility of using FPs without having to arrive at the parks at 8:30 AM each day. Disney is trying to spread the magic. And one of the things that Disney has said about the FP+ is that people will be able to change FPs while in the parks.....so they have to make a way for this to happen. Otherwise, the system really will fail. I can see them saving something like 25% of the FPs for same day use. Also, you will have other people who will be dropping their FPs due to changes, etc that will open up more availability each day. No....it isn't going to be as nice as just walking up to a machine and grabbing your FPs, but with enforced return times as well as the chance that any particular FP can run out by the time you get there....well....even the current system isn't that flexible.
    Me neither. If they did give out all the FPs before the actual day I could envision huge problems at the parks.

    To address someone's earlier point, considering how many people don't use FP now, how many of these types of people will use it when FP+ is in place?

  13. #38
    Senior Member Strangeite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stratocaster68 View Post
    To address someone's earlier point, considering how many people don't use FP now, how many of these types of people will use it when FP+ is in place?
    I can't give you a number, but I think more than currently use regular Fastpass.

    My son was just at WDW with his mom and they got to test Fastpass+. I sent her a text asking if they were also able to use regular Fastpass, in addition to the 3 Fastpass+ they were allotted. She responded with confusion, because she didn't know anything about regular Fastpass. They were using Fastpass+ because Disney contacted them and specifically told them to make reservations.
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  14. #39
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    I think more than currently use regular Fastpass.
    I think so too. It's just a reservation. People understand what those are. Compare that to the amount of messaging/education Disney has to provide to explain how FP works to its guests---the planning DVD, Resort TV, park map descriptions, etc. Think back to when *you* were a newbie, and just learning about FP. If you use a planning site, you probably read *pages* about it.

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    I understood, Strangeite, :) I was just tossing the dictionary into the conversations, maybe just to needle you a bit. I do understand there is no real need involved here or in theory anywhere .

    I think the word "need" is very much on topic. I'm guessing we all have a different idea of what our FP needs are based on a number of variables and withthe FP+ rollout, we are all going to need to redefine that need.

  16. #41
    tests unsafe roller coasts in china blyday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bnoble View Post
    I think so too. It's just a reservation. People understand what those are. Compare that to the amount of messaging/education Disney has to provide to explain how FP works to its guests---the planning DVD, Resort TV, park map descriptions, etc. Think back to when *you* were a newbie, and just learning about FP. If you use a planning site, you probably read *pages* about it.
    I think so too. And the truth is.....I believe that is exactly what Disney is trying for. They are limiting the number simply to make more available for the "regular" masses. And, when you get an email telling you that you can do online check in and start making your FP reservations....well....there will be a whole group of people jumping on the band wagon.
    Brenda

  17. #42
    Senior Member neffernie's Avatar
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    I think more will as well, especially if they see it as part of the package they are buying.
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  18. #43
    Senior Member Strangeite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marianna View Post
    I understood, Strangeite, :) I was just tossing the dictionary into the conversations, maybe just to needle you a bit.


    This is an interesting conversation because it will affect "planners" like those here on EasyWDW more than your average guest. I suspect that it will force many of us to re-evaluate why we tour the way we do. Do we devise an itinerary based on crowd calendars, develop touring plans to maximise FP usage, get up early for RD, etc., because that is the most enjoyable way for us to vacation, or is it because it scratches a particular itch knowing that we are doing things "better" than the average guest?

    Disney hasn't dropped a billion and half dollars (more than it cost to build Epcot) for nothing.
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    I just go when it's sunny. ;)

    Seriously, I agree. We'll all have to re-evaluate. I imagine the initial rollout will also be tweaked as Disney does it's own re-evaluation of how to meet it's own needs.

    This is costing over a billion? Really?

  20. #45
    who gon stop me? HUH? josh's Avatar
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    I'm sure there will be ways to take advantage of the new system just like there were ways to take advantage of the old one.

    When current FASTPASS was announced, it wasn't like they came out and said FASTPASSes could be used anytime after the window opens or when Dumbo moves and Barnstormer is re-themed that they will be disconnected.

  21. #46
    expert on dietary needs and disney dining clanmcculloch's Avatar
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    Yup, people will adjust. As Brian said, according to the internet, ALL CHANGE IS BAD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marianna View Post
    I'll be interested in seeing how this works out for my situation. As a local AP holder, I don't always plan in advance. I know I'm to be given the same 60 day out options ( or so I understand), but sometimes I decide if I'm going to WDW with the 6:00am alarm. I'm guessing there will still be day of FP's available. Curious to see how they offer that and if arriving at RD on the spur of the moment will still get me a few FP's just as now.
    I can't speak to how all locals will feel (heck I'm not even a local), but if it was me, I'd just be looking at those last minute days as an opportunity to do the little things I often skip over. Sure I'd check for last minute FPs of my favourite attractions and I'd try to hit the park in time for RD and go to my favourites at that time but after those first couple hours, I'd just take in the atmosphere and enjoy all the filler activities. It's not like I wouldn't be going back another time without the opportunity to plan or I wouldn't be going back for another RD day where I can hit other headliners I didn't get to go to that day.

  22. #47
    Senior Member DisneySmiles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blyday View Post
    I think so too. And the truth is.....I believe that is exactly what Disney is trying for. They are limiting the number simply to make more available for the "regular" masses. And, when you get an email telling you that you can do online check in and start making your FP reservations....well....there will be a whole group of people jumping on the band wagon.
    I'm not so sure though. I currently get emails reminding me to make my dining reservations/check in online and look how many people have no idea about that. People on a whole just don't pay attention. My neighbor just got back and I had to explain to him before his trip that he wouldn't be able to just walk up and get a table for 12. Us ubber planners log in at 180+10, others will make some closer to their trip, then there is another group doesn't even realize they need ADRs for TS and end up eating CS and finally there is the group that doesn't want to plan ahead and wants flexibility.

    At 60 days, the major planners will be grabbing up all of the "good" FPs, while non planners who do decide to use FP+ will eventually log on a few days/weeks before their trip (not knowing there is a sense of urgency when they recieve their email) and book Stitch because that is all that is left.

    When the "good" restaurants are gone for the non planners or late planners it isn't that big of a deal because for the most part Disney food is Disney food and they don't really know what they are missing. But when they start touring the parks and realize all of their "magic" FPs are for rides that have no lines anyway and they can't get on more popular rides without a huge wait, I think the strategy behind FP+ could backfire. It's like Disney is promising them low waits and then not delivering. At least with the current system, they go in knowing there will be waits.

    I actually think it will work fairly well for us planners and as Josh said I think there will definitely be loopholes and strategies. I'm actually looking forward to utilizing RD and afternoon FPs without having to FPV. It also makes me more willing to go at busier times because with proper planning I know I can do RD, get in our favorites on FP+, and then just enjoy fillers and atmosphere. It should be an interesting few months as this finally starts to unfold.

  23. #48
    Senior Member ChristineOH's Avatar
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    I wonder how WDW is going to reach the "non-planners" and use FP+ to improve their experiences via a method that requires MORE planning, of which they are doing none.

    On-site guests might get emails, but what about off-site guests? Will all on-site guests even bother with an itinerary and ride plan two months out?

    Even if they save some FP+ slots for same day reservations, will all of us planners snatch them up? Will we be on our smartphones at 6:00 am (fictional example) trying to trade our assigned ToT FP for a TSMM one when the window opens?
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  24. #49
    Senior Member Strangeite's Avatar
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    There is a component to this that hasn't been addressed yet in this thread. I believe it was Josh that theorized that one priority of NextGen in general and Fastpass+ in particular, is for a more homogenized distribution of crowds throughout the parks. Example: Your in the park and suddenly your phone beeps at you. Surprise! You have been issued a bonus Fastpass to ride Pirates. Your scheduled window is from 11:30 to 12:30.

    Now most people will look at this as some extra pixie dust and head over to Adventure Land around 11:30. Of course, Disney can then utilize this system to gently move crowds around the park to maximize efficiency.

    I am not an expert, but there has been some very interesting work done in the last 5 years on creating very sophisticated mathematical models of human swarm behavior and crowd dynamics. Dollars to donuts that some of that 1.5 to 2 billion dollars has been spent on mathematicians.
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  25. #50
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    My father hates WDW because he say's it's like being herded around like a bunch of cattle. That was his thoughts back in 1971 when the park opened. So much so now. I agree, the bands will definitely allow them to move the crowds around to where they desire, with little bits of "sugar". Most people won't even realize it's happening.


    It would be so interesting to get an insider look at this side of WDW.

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